cheers, Smudgy!

In almost 10 years of using Windows, I have never wrote a batch script. Not because I didn’t know how to.

I’m guessing it’s because Windows batch scripts are practically impossible to write.

Here’s another dare. Not that I expect you to respond, because you didn’t respond to my earlier requests for proof, but perhas for other readers. Show us Windows batchfile code that does some perfectly ordinary scripting task. Like, say, capturing the output of a command. Or looping over space-separated words contained in a variable. I’m not saying it’s impossible. But it’s difficult enough to have made me ask for help on occasion.

I can tell the difference between writing a code and typing “mount –t ntfs /dev/had…”

Yeah, I can tell the difference too. You write code to do something new because existing code doesn’t do it. Which is why you can mount and unmount devices (e.g., USB DOKs) from a Linux GUI (eg KDE) via a fully graphical interface.

More easily than in Windows, too. When Windows didn’t auto-mount my USB hard disk, I had to manually “assign a drive letter” (in Windows GUI parlance) to it via Computer Management etc. Not something I’d wish on a newbie, not because it’s hard to do physically (it’s all GUI), but because you have to know about it to use it.

Sure, that’s anecdotal evidence. Most specific examples are. In my experience, modern Linux GUIs are much more intuitive and easy to learn and use for computer newbies than the latest Windows (i.e., XP SP2) – unless you insist that the Linux GUI behave exactly the way Windows does to comfort migrating users. It can’t, because it wants to be better than Windows, which means different.

We will have to divide this to two questions: are people aware to the existence of programming language, and do people want to learn how to program.
I think that the answer to the first question must be yes.

Amazing. I sincerely believe that the huge majority of computer users, the non-technical and usually older majority, have no idea what programming means. They’ve probably heard the word, but it’s on a par with hearing about “hacking” (the being-smart-must-be-illegal meme). They have no actual idea what the word means.

I can only support it from my personal, and so anecdotal, experience. Can you show proof of your claim that most people do know what programming is on some rudimentary level? What would you consider sufficient here? Elementary algorithmic thinking?

surely most people would recognize “C” or “C++”, or even “VB”.

I really think we’re not talking about the same people… The average user I have in mind isn’t sure of the file metaphor, let alone the existence of multiple programming languages!

I think it’s the case that complete non-tech-savvy computer users outnumber the slightly-computer-savvy users you describe. The latter probably browse the Web a lot more and gather some knowledge that way. I have no numbers to prove my case, do you?

Everything you wrote below this point is completely opposite to what Brin and I say. It’s trolling. I’ll have to disregard future instances and maybe delete comments if it gets bad. “I haven’t read the article yet but I don’t agree with it and here’s why” is NOT acceptable.

Both you and Dr. brin, whose original post I haven’t yet read, claim that the main reason that people don’t learn how to program is due to the lack of lingua franca of modern programming. I wish to offer a different point of view.

What’s this, an extreme form of Slashdot-esque I-won’t-read-the-actual-article trolling? This is not what Brin says, it’s completely different. And completely wrong. And it’s not what I say either. And if you’re not going to read the article I’m writing about, you shouldn’t be commenting here.

That brings me to my second point. Both you and Dr. brin, whose original post I haven’t yet read, claim that the main reason that people don’t learn how to program is due to the lack of lingua franca of modern programming. I wish to offer a different point of view.
IMHO, I someone today wishes to learn how to program, he has a variety of languages available, manuals in many different languages, and compilers that require no greater skill to download and install then let’s say, the latest file sharing program. So the problem can’t be accessibility. Can the problem be lack of exposure? Perhaps. Let’s try to analyze this issue. We will have to divide this to two questions: are people aware to the existence of programming language, and do people want to learn how to program.
I think that the answer to the first question must be yes. Most people probably wouldn’t recognize the term “LISP” or may be offended if you offered them to learn “BrainFuck”(as I would be, being familiar with it) but surely most people would recognize “C” or “C++”, or even “VB”.
So we are left with the second question, do people want to learn how to program. I admit, it seems like a stupid question. Of course they want to learn how to program, it is easy and enjoyable. But let us assume that even if it were easy and enjoyable, there still would be some people who wouldn’t want to program. After all, not all people read, although it is easier then programming, and probably as enjoyable. So the question remains, if we would have found a lingua franca, would those people suddenly will want to learn how to program? I say no. I say that most people don’t program because they find it to be a waste of time, completely unnecessary, not to say boring.

So what can be done? We can try and force everyone to learn the basic of programming, by introducing them to an environment in which you learn not to fear non graphic user interfaces, which will lead to not being afraid of programming. It is pointless to try and find some holy grail that will help the masses to understand that they actually want to program, they simply didn’t know it till now. The masses have a good grasp on what they want, and apparently, programming is not it.

another small isusse: most people don’t want to program. most of the computer owners are aware to the fact that programing exist, but they do not require it for they dailt life use, and would not use an OS that will demend them to learn how to program.

Troll. What OS requires you to be able to program in order to use it? Did I suggest making such an OS? Come on, give one example of an OS that behaves like that.

Hint: using the command line IS NOT PROGRAMMING.

I rest my case.

Without answering any of my questions…

the point of using linux , for most of computer owners ,is using an alternative to MS OS.

And what’s the reason you want an alternative to Windows to begin with? If all you want is Java and Flash, stick to Windows. They work better there than in Linux. In fact I can tell you it’s practically certain that Java and Flash will never work better in Linux than in Windows. So if those are your major apps and you don’t care about freedom or anything else Linux can offer you, sure, stay with Windows.

You’ll also note that this post was NOT ABOUT TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE TO MOVE TO LINUX. I merely mentioned that if all goes well they might want to do so one day in the future, when linux is better for them. Please don’t change the subject anymore because your comments are simply not related to my post.

Unless linux will provide the tools needed for every day use, and that include Flash and Java, being used on most of the popular websites. i empesize the use of “Popular”. if you wish to be wide-spread, you have to adreess this issue.

You seem to be confused between “Adobe Flash”, the proprietary Flash interpreter, and the Flash format it supports.

The former will never work on Linux for the simple reason that it’s not free. (An unsupported, buggy, proprietary binary-only version limited to a single architecture doesn’t count as working.) This is a good thing, because we don’t want all the proprietary ISVs to port their software to Linux without opening it up. If they did, Linux would be no better than Windows. Linux can only be better, in the ways that it is (and might yet become in the future), because it is free.

The latter is also proprietary, and secret. Adobe only make the Flash specification available under an NDA. It’s not a standard you can just go and implement. And that is the major reason the current free implementation is far from complete. That, and the fact practically noone wants to work on it.

Different but similar considerations apply to Java and its (incomplete) free implementations.

Your own approach seems to be saying there can never be reform. We can never take back any mistakes we made. If some really, really bad (in whatever way) program becomes common on Windows then Linux should support it just because it’s common? And if Windows users find it really cool to grant anonymous connections Administrator privileges, and some stupid Windows program that relies on that becomes really common, we should support it too?

if this makes you think “it is Linux’s fault, then” or “Linux really isn’t ready for sane users like me”, then what’s the point of your using Linux to begin with? ”

I rest my case. that kind of approach is excatly the thing that make people stay with crappy MS OS.

Linux, IMOH, should not be a “programers-only” OS. the point of using linux , for most of computer owners ,is using an alternative to MS OS. not finding the ultimate programing platform, or being a sacrifice for “open-source” crusade.

Unless linux will provide the tools needed for every day use, and that include Flash and Java, being used on most of the popular websites. i empesize the use of “Popular”. if you wish to be wide-spread, you have to adreess this issue.

Luckily, there are other people who think like i do, and they, and many others, are working on easy to use linux.

another small isusse: most people don’t want to program. most of the computer owners are aware to the fact that programing exist, but they do not require it for they dailt life use, and would not use an OS that will demend them to learn how to program. altough this may contradict with the well known fact that “programing is fun, and if you don’t enjoy it, you simply haven’t found you perfect language” i stand behind it.

BTW, the #1 reason people will tell you not to use Java and Flash is that neither has a complete, uptodate, Free implementation (for Linux or otherwise). And they’re absolutely right. You shouldn’t, as a matter of principle, use unfree software such as Sun Java or Flash.

if this makes you think “it is Linux’s fault, then” or “Linux really isn’t ready for sane users like me”, then what’s the point of your using Linux to begin with? Once you take away the freedom – in this case not a vague moral argument at all, but the crucial freedom to fix the Sun Java bugs so I can tell you Java works great on Linux – what’s left?

Well, sure, a lot of power and convenience is left. But if you only come halfway towards freedom, then you only get half of the benefits.

It can be argued whether the .net is a good programming environment or not, but it can’t be denied that it is being aggressively introduced to the educated public.

You seem not to understand the subject of the post, and of Brin’s article. This about introducing the concept of programming to people who don’t know what programming is. What we shouldn’t expect MS to do is e.g., teach elementary programming to K12 students.

I’m perfectly aware that they advocate and instruct in the use of .Net and other MS technologies among people who have already made the decision to study programming (“the educated public”). This is so for the simple reason that they know these people will program in some other langauge if they don’t do it. That’s not what the post is about.

I can testify as an ubuntu user, who chose that specific OS because it’s user friendliness, that I am forced to use command line interface now and then. Perhaps it is possible to avoid it, but not for the everyday user.

I did say linux doesn’t require regular CLI usage. It may require occasional CLI usage, but shouldn’t require even that for tasks that non-technical users are expected to attempt. If in some instances it does require such usage, then they shold be fixed. Could you provide specific examples?

Note for clarity: CLI usage is required when there is no GUI tool to do the same task; and config-file editing is not CLI usage (since you can do it with a GUI editor).

On a different point, “but because this would create a large middle class of power-users who, in their turn, will be able to provide grassroots support to their lower-class neighbors when they decide to switch to Linux.”. that is simply nonsense. If that was the case, no single student in the university should have used MS products, because of the existence of Linux user in universities.

Note the conditional ‘when’ in my description! When people want to migrate to Linux, they will need grassroots support to do so. The (potentia) existence of the support is a necessary but insufficient requirement for the mass migration. I never said the only thing lacking for a mass migration was decent support. Your comment that Linux isn’t good enough for the average Windows user yet (read: doesn’t look and behave exactly like Windows and doesn’t support the user’s existing mission-critical Windows apps) is quite correct.

Mainly because of compatibility issues with the rest of the world

Correctly phrased as: Windows’ compatibility issues with the rest of the world….

most of the things you want to do are impossible

If most of the things you want to do is run Windows programs…

and that the support is many time limited to responses such as: “I don’t use that, and neither should you”, “I don’t have that problem”

The community support for Linux distros and projects is well known as the best, or one of the best, in history (depending on your metric). If some jerk has been giving you such responses, go to the official community channels.

Of course, it might be you are doing something you shouldn’t be doing. In which case, address the reason give for not doing it.

or my personal favorite: “the problem is not Linux, it’s jave and flash. Disable java and flash, and you should be able to use the internet just fine. On second thought, why don’t you switch to lynx?”.

How many years ago did you last hear that? Java and flash (the latter for x86/x86_64 only, but it doesn’t sound like you’re using something else) have worked properly with Linux browsers for a looong time now. Today this almost qualifies as a troll.

Another point on which I wish to remark is that “modern Linux or OSX requires regular command-line usage”. Well, they do. I can testify as an ubuntu user, who chose that specific OS because it’s user friendliness, that I am forced to use command line interface now and then. Perhaps it is possible to avoid it, but not for the everyday user.

On a different point, “but because this would create a large middle class of power-users who, in their turn, will be able to provide grassroots support to their lower-class neighbors when they decide to switch to Linux.”. that is simply nonsense. If that was the case, no single student in the university should have used MS products, because of the existence of Linux user in universities. Although there are more Linux users in universities, the majority of people still use MS. The reason why people don’t switch to Linux is not because of lack of other Linux users, but because Linux, at the moment, isn’t good enough for the average user. Mainly because of compatibility issues with the rest of the world, but also because of the t idea that using Linux is such a great cause, that you should ignore the fact the most of the things you want to do are impossible, and that the support is many time limited to responses such as: “I don’t use that, and neither should you”, “I don’t have that problem”, or my personal favorite: “the problem is not Linux, it’s jave and flash. Disable java and flash, and you should be able to use the internet just fine. On second thought, why don’t you switch to lynx?”.